Submenus don't show accelerator keys

[terrypin]

I'm making increasing use of menus. Some of them are getting quite long. So today I took advantage of ME Pro's facility to add a 'submenu'. But this seems flawed because all the submenu entries are displayed with no accelerator key. So keyboard activation isn't possible.

 

This is because they are shown in the 'Windows default' style, which has that major shortcoming (the main reason I never use it for menus). There appears to be no way to change the submenu style to Nickname & Scope, which does show the accelerators.

 

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Terry, East Grinstead, UK

[Yehnfikm8Gq]

Did you reboot this month? Just kidding!

 

That seems to be the way it works. I've also been trying out Name and Scope and you always get the underlined shortcuts in sub-menus. To give you a heads-up from ME3 forum, if you run out of unique underlined letters, ME stops allocating them and presumably you have to double-click. There also seems to be a bug (in ME3 at least) with the underlined hotkey sometimes repeating.

[Cory]

It works for me.

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I know you hate hearing this from me but it works just fine on my machine. I just made a quick test macro to check it out. Created a popup menu with a submenu and assigned it an accelerator key with no problems. I did notice it didn't assign one by default though.

[terrypin]

It works for me.

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I know you hate hearing this from me but it works just fine on my machine. I just made a quick test macro to check it out. Created a popup menu with a submenu and assigned it an accelerator key with no problems. I did notice it didn't assign one by default though.

 

 

Are you sure you didn't mis-read my post?

"But this seems flawed because all the submenu entries are displayed with no accelerator key."

 

The sub-menu itself gets an accelerator. Its entries do not. Not here anyway.

 

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Terry, East Grinstead, UK

[Cory]

Yes Terry, I did read your post.

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I created a submenu Test with an accelerator key T and put a macro under it Clipboard Copy and assigned it the accelerator C. I tested it and it worked fine. CTRL+1 > T > C and the macro ran.

 

Man this forum just isn't as much fun as it used to be. I hate getting snipped at in the morning and having to defend my posts. A lot of angst here these days.

[terrypin]

Yes Terry, I did read your post.

..............................................

I created a submenu Test with an accelerator key T and put a macro under it Clipboard Copy and assigned it the accelerator C. I tested it and it worked fine. CTRL+1 > T > C and the macro ran.

 

Man this forum just isn't as much fun as it used to be. I hate getting snipped at in the morning and having to defend my posts. A lot of angst here these days.

 

Cory: It was a genuine question - no 'snipping' intended.

 

Anyway, if you can do it then that's encouraging. So far I can't, so all I need to know is the details of where I'm going wrong!

 

I'll illustrate with a small example. Here's my menu in its original form. Style is 'Nickname & Scope'. All its entries have accelerators.

 

 

And here it is after I've inserted a submenu (accelerator X) and moved two entries into place underneath it (accelerators B & C ).

 

 

But on opening the submenu the accelerators are not displayed.

 

 

 

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Terry, East Grinstead, UK

[Yehnfikm8Gq]

I get it. If you double-click the sub-menu item, you can choose an accelerator key.

[terrypin]

I get it. If you double-click the sub-menu item, you can choose an accelerator key.

 

Sorry John, maybe I'm being even denser than usual, but I still don't get it. I know how to assign accelerator keys. (Either use the tool 'A' or double-click.) What I'm asking is how to get them subsequently displayed when the submenu is actually opened. Can you show me your screenshot equivalent of my third one please.

 

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Terry, East Grinstead, UK

[Yehnfikm8Gq]

My mistake, you're right. The hotkey works but it does not display.

[terrypin]

My mistake, you're right. The hotkey works but it does not display.

 

Let's wait for Cory's solution.

 

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Terry, East Grinstead, UK

[Yehnfikm8Gq]

I'm jumping between two forums. Something I figured in ME3 can be used in MEPro. To create a sub-menu Pop-Up, create it standalone (NOT using the main Pop-Up dialog). You can set the properties to whatever you like. When creating the main Pop-up, add the sub-menu Pop-Up just like any other macro. It works fine. The accelerator to get the sub-menu will be whatever the main Pop-Up allocates. Maybe that's what everyone is doing but it was new to me.

 

Below is a hybrid menu. It's a bit scruffy because it's from my Testing section. You will see that "mysub" is a standalone Pop-up I added like the other macros in the list. "Macro Open File" is one I created within the main Pop-Up using the select and indent method. Ironically "mysub" appears with Name and Scope but "Macro Open File" is the Windows default that I don't want! There's no messing around with that annoying indent stuff either.

 

 

Edited March 10, 2010 by JohnS

[terrypin]

John,

 

Your screenshot doesn't show what the open submenu looks like. Do you have a screenshot of that, showing its entries displayed with their accelerator keys?

 

My view is that it's simply either a 'design flaw' or a bug. The bottom line is the same: you can't use the facility as you should be able to.

 

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Terry, East Grinstead, UK

[Yehnfikm8Gq]

The open sub-menu looks just the same as you see in the attachment. Having chosen "Name and Scope" the macros are labelled A, B, C etc automatically just like the attachment pic. When you think about it, a Pop-Up is just another macro. Run it and it appears as a Pop-Up instead of opening an app.

 

The great thing is that you don't have to mess with indents and you can have whatever format you like for the "sub-menu". There is no limit on how many macros you can run. The main Pop-Up is 36. Each of those 36 could be a Pop-Ups and those 36 and 36 and so on. The difference of this method compared with a programmed sub-menu is that all the menu information for the sub-menus is contained in those sub-menus, not the main one.

 

You seem correct in your original issue that the accelerator keys are not displayed.

[Cory]

Here's a sample for you.

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I can't imagine why this isn't working for you. I did notice you are using Nickname and Scope instead of Windows Default like you last indicated so I tried that too. See attached file. FYI I hate the Nickname and Scope and prefer the svelte Windows Default.

 

Try my attached file, CTRL+1 is the hotkey. Simply hit T then B and see that it pops up the B Macro. All I did was create "A Macro" and "B Macro" then a Menu macro. I added A Macro and assigned it the hotkey A and then added the Submenu item named Test and made its accelerator T. Then finally added under the submenu B Macro and set it's accelerator to B.

 

In the case that you don't know how to set the accelerator highlight the menu item and click the "A" on the right pane with the underscore.

 

If this macro doesn't work for you post a simple test macro like this that illustrates how it doesn't work for you.

Demo4Terry.mex

[Yehnfikm8Gq]

I think the sample went astray. The forum disappeared in molasses today. I had to post an attachment twice before it stuck.

[terrypin]

Here's a sample for you.

 

As John said, your attachment didn't turn up.

 

I can't imagine why this isn't working for you. I did notice you are using Nickname and Scope instead of Windows Default like you last indicated

 

Well, not to be snippy, but no I didn't! I said the submenu entries were shown in that format. Hasty reading again?

"This is because they are shown in the 'Windows default' style, which has that major shortcoming (the main reason I never use it for menus)."

 

so I tried that too. See attached file.

 

Look forward to getting the file.

 

FYI I hate the Nickname and Scope and prefer the svelte Windows Default.

 

Each to his own. Svelte yes, but I like the extra info you get from N&S.

 

Try my attached file, CTRL+1 is the hotkey. Simply hit T then B and see that it pops up the B Macro. All I did was create "A Macro" and "B Macro" then a Menu macro. I added A Macro and assigned it the hotkey A and then added the Submenu item named Test and made its accelerator T. Then finally added under the submenu B Macro and set it's accelerator to B.

 

Will do, when I get the file!

 

In the case that you don't know how to set the accelerator highlight the menu item and click the "A" on the right pane with the underscore.

 

You accused me earlier of being 'snippy' when I politely asked if you were sure you'd read my post properly. Yet you've done it again. In my post #8 I said: "I know how to assign accelerator keys. (Either use the tool 'A' or double-click.)". Perhaps you should reconsider using Standard view so you don't miss any posts?

 

If this macro doesn't work for you post a simple test macro like this that illustrates how it doesn't work for you.

 

Believe me, Cory, I'm still hoping that I'm wrong and that I've missed something obvious - it wouldn't be the first or last time!

 

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Terry, East Grinstead, UK

[terrypin]

Thanks to an email from Kevin (who also couldn't understand what my problem was) I can at last see where the confusion has almost certainly arisen. Timezones mean I'm unlikely to see Cory's missing file for some hours (and probably not until tomorrow here, as I'm out all evening). But meanwhile I'm guessing that he is referring to the underlined letters in menus which use the Windows Default style.

 

But they are unusable, an unholy mess! I think the polite phrase is "unfit for purpose". I've raised this with ISS at least once before. And in this forum, such as here where I see I also had difficulty getting understood. Anyway, that's the main reason why I don't attempt to use the Windows Default style.

 

Here's the result of another couple of hours work in the hope to get this clear:

 

 

That comparison was made after starting from my usual menu (in Nickname & Scope style) and changing it to Windows Default style.

 

And here's another typical example from my many menus, virtually all of which get their keys scrambled by using Windows Default.

 

 

I'm not clear how the inconsistency arises. It takes more than a couple of trivial tests for it to emerge. As you see here, the key shown in Menu Builder remains the same whether you specify Windows Default or Nickame & Scope style.

 

 

But when you then actually open that Windows Default menu, its keys are well and truly scrambled.

 

Getting back to the practical problem of making submenus RELIABLY usable with keys, I think ISS should specify that they follow the parent menu style. Using Nickname & Scope that would solve the problem at a stroke. I wonder whether it's even worth retaining the Windows Default style given its present bugginess and the other shortcomings I've listed in the illustrations above.

 

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Terry, East Grinstead, UK

[terrypin]

And to complement my last post, if anyone wants to reproduce the errors I've described, here's an MEX file:

 

Mem_Map_Reconstructed.mex

 

that will allow reproduction of the following results:

 

 

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Terry, East Grinstead, UK

[Yehnfikm8Gq]

I assumed that the Windows Default format allocated the accelerator keys regardless of any manual settings. It has to use letters in the command titles. The reality is I suspect, that that Windows Default menu option will not show an allocated accelerator key. The ones that seemed correct in terrrypin's were probably by coincidence because the allocated keys were roughly in the same order (A-Z) as ME was trying to allocate. Looking at the jpg ID 548, it looks like

 

It started with A for the 1st

The 2nd did not have a B so it allocated C

C had just been used, the 3rd title did not have a D, so it allocated E

 

As I noted before, I found that when you used up all the available letters it stopped allocating them. I did not get any dupes from my limited meddling, although users in ME3 did.

 

That Windows Default is difficult to see. The i and l shortcut in particular. The hybrid method I found allows you to set the submenu Pop-Up to any format. I assume that if you chose Windows Default you would still have the key allocation problem.

 

Awaiting Cory's but I think you don't get to see the A, B etc with Windows Default.

[Cory]

As John said, your attachment didn't turn up.

 

You accused me earlier of being 'snippy' when I politely asked if you were sure you'd read my post properly. Yet you've done it again.

I'm sorry Terry I have not committed to memory every post you have made here. I wasn't being snippy I was asking a question. And in my experience of teaching users 25% of the time that they say they know how to do something they just think they know how to do it when in fact they do not. It's usually my tactic to test them on this to be sure. Sorry you took it the wrong way. And in this case this is such a simple thing I'm grasping at straws here trying to guess at what you could be doing wrong.

 

Don't know why my attachment didn't attach. I actually saw it in the list of attachments to manage after clicking the upload button. Strange.

 

"Yet you've done it again" I'm sorry I'm bothering you with my suggestions and help;-) JK I'm sorry I've been short with you. It's just that you appear to have a large amount of problems that no one else does and things that work just fine on other folks systems don't on yours and yet you tend to be critical of MEP and ISS. It just seems like all my responses to you are a courtroom defense of MEP, ISS, and myself. I was just getting a little frustrated with you. But I'll try to be more objective in the future.

[Cory]

Each to his own. Svelte yes, but I like the extra info you get from N&S.

I don't like being slave to the macro names for popup macros either. If it were me I'd allow the user to specify the text. In the past I've done two different things. First is to make my own menus using multiple choice and another is to create a Menu category with popup macros and simple launch macros. The first is obvious to anyone I think but it requires an extra keystroke to commit the OK. Accelerators do work. But the later works pretty well. You see the macros containing only the Macro Run can be named anything you like and the svelte Windows Default works well. But with the multiple choice one can be more clever like remembering the last selection, organize by frequency of use and so on.

[Cory]

"Unholy mess?"

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Terry this is an old issue you raised some time ago. Doesn't this only apply to unassigned accelerator keys? That is ones that are not explicitly set by the programmer. If so I don't think it applies to this situation. I believe ISS has that in their bug tracker.

 

I use Windows Default exclusively and manually assign all my accelerator keys and I never have a problem with them. After all what are the odds that on a 20 item menu the system will assign then just the way I want? Nill.

 

Terry I still don't see a sample macro illustrating your original problem. Did I miss it? I have a very hard time reading this post because John likes to frustrate me and shatter the continuity of the threads using "Add Reply".

 

And "Unholy mess"? Seriously? Did you ever write for the newspapers? The ones that describe 2 days of a Boy Scout being lost as an "Epic Adventure" or a building collapse as being "Apocalyptic"? ;-) JK

[Cory]

Accelerator key visibility varies from system to system.

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As has been discussed here before the Windows environment controls this and MEP does not. However one can always make them visible with the Alt (or was it CTRL) button. I had a system once where they were always invisible until I did that. But the accelerator keys still work regardless of their visibility. So is Terry's problem that he can't see the underscores or that they don't work? Personally I've never seen them not work. And if visibility is a problem then is a problem with his system config and I have no idea how to fix that.

 

And Terry says he knows how to manually set the accelerator so the whole issue about the problem with system assignation is completely moot and a distraction IMHO. Let's stick with manually assigned accelerators for now.

 

I suggest a reboot here. Take my sample MEX. Can you both do a CTRL+1 > T > B and get the macro to fire? If it does, then MEP is working fine and we just need to see the difference between Terry's macro and mine. However Terry has yet to provide a simple demo macro. If not I don't think there is much we can do to help and should probably turn into a support ticket for ISS.

[terrypin]

Terry I still don't see a sample macro illustrating your original problem. Did I miss it? I have a very hard time reading this post because John likes to frustrate me and shatter the continuity of the threads using "Add Reply".

 

Yes, you must have done. It took me an hour or so to prepare (because I had to simulate a 'fresh start') and I posted it particularly with you in mind, in post #18 of this thread.

 

In case you also missed the recommendation I made in post #16, I'll repeat it: consider switching to standard view so that you see all posts.

 

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Terry, East Grinstead, UK

[terrypin]

I assumed that the Windows Default format allocated the accelerator keys regardless of any manual settings. It has to use letters in the command titles. The reality is I suspect, that that Windows Default menu option will not show an allocated accelerator key. The ones that seemed correct in terrrypin's were probably by coincidence because the allocated keys were roughly in the same order (A-Z) as ME was trying to allocate. Looking at the jpg ID 548, it looks like

 

It started with A for the 1st

The 2nd did not have a B so it allocated C

C had just been used, the 3rd title did not have a D, so it allocated E

 

As I noted before, I found that when you used up all the available letters it stopped allocating them. I did not get any dupes from my limited meddling, although users in ME3 did.

 

That Windows Default is difficult to see. The i and l shortcut in particular. The hybrid method I found allows you to set the submenu Pop-Up to any format. I assume that if you chose Windows Default you would still have the key allocation problem.

 

Awaiting Cory's but I think you don't get to see the A, B etc with Windows Default.

 

Agreed. Despite the apparent contradiction in Menu Builder, which as I've pointed out shows no change in the assigned keys when you switch to N&S style.

 

My suggestions:

 

1. Submenus should be displayed in the style of their parent menu. (In my case that would always be N&S.)

 

2. Otherwise, or meanwhile, if the style chosen was Windows Default, a message should be displayed in Menu Builder (or at least in Help) along these lines:

"In Windows Default style the keys assigned must match a letter in the macro name. Duplicates are also possible, making activation unpredictable. So care is needed in selection."

 

3. Drop Windows Default entirely, as it seems inferior in all respects , as I illustrated here:

 

 

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Terry, East Grinstead, UK